Recently Ted Haggard appeared on Larry King among other shows and his interview has created alot of different reactions as you can imagine. In fact, I was just with a pastor friend who was outraged at the interview. I did not see it quite the same way as he did and he later told me I gave him some things to think about. I realize that everytime a high profile ministry is exposed for some secret sin that it creates a media frenzy and those who are against what we do and stand for take their shots as well but here are a few thoughts I have.1) How many Ted's are out there, maybe reading this blog who has a secret battle that they are hiding, maybe not of a homosexual nature but sexual or dangerous nonetheless.
2) How many of us have relationships with someone that we could talk to if we did have some major sexual issues or something that could destroy our ministry? Seriously, someone we could go to who will not judge us but help us and hold us accountable?
3) Have we created a culture in our churches where people who live certain types of lifestyles could never come and feel welcomed or accepted? I am not saying that we accept the lifestyle but we can't minister to the person if the person is not accepted.
4) Have we focused so much on Homosexuality that we have failed to deal with many other issues facing people today?
5) Thankfully Ted's wife stayed with him, however with so many ministers and their wives cheating on one another and divorce so common, couldn't we start taking time at our conventions and district church growth conferences and atleast focus a service or two on ministering to our pastors in the way of marriage and the toll ministry takes on them?
There is more to this I know but I am curious what all of you think?
I seen this interview as it was aired. Jesus forgives. The media frenzy that surrounded this incident as it unfolded some time ago was engaged again as Ted decided to be interviewed and was on several talk shows. Jesus forgives. Without doubt this story hits all of us hard because it is a fellow Pastor.
ReplyDeleteAs we walk thru this life of ministry it is essential that we have people in place that will hold us accountable and that we forge the conversations that need to happen. At times in our lives when we are weak the enemy can come in and destroy the work of God in our lives but forget, Jesus forgives.
Stay strong. Continually speak life. Forge an accountability relationship. Bathe in prayer. Dive deep in God's word. Never forget Jesus forgives.
As we deal with the dirtiness of this world we live, never forget Jesus was ridiculed for spending time with sinners. Whoever they are and whatever they have done, they need us to speak life, Jesus forgives. Getting dirt on our hands sometimes is not pretty and we must continually allow the Holy Spirit to direct us. Make room in your ministry to touch those that nobody else wants to touch. Jesus forgives.
I'll never forget the year I attended Tommy Barnett's Pastor's School in Pheonix for the third time. I turned to shake hands with people around me, and to my amazement, I was shaking the hand of Jim Bakker. I watched just minutes later as he was reunited with his son. His son made the comment that it took prison for him to have one-on-one time with his dad. It was a moment that I'll never forget.
ReplyDeleteThe reception that day of a repentant Jim Bakker was a far cry from the condemning words spewing from Jimmy Swaggart's lips back in the 80's; and the condemning spirit of the church at large. Jimmy Swaggart himself would fall victim to the same angry mob month's later.
The church has come a long way when it comes to love, acceptance, and forgiveness. It's a comforting promise to know that our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I'm grateful to know that I'm loved, accepted, and forgiven.
John has some startling words as a reminder for us all. He said in I John 3:7-10, "...do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother..."
I'm reminded again... 1) Not to be so busy with the work of the Lord, that I miss the Lord in the work. 2) I need to give mercy that I might obtain mercy. I will not judge anyone for anything unless I'm willing to be judged equally. 3) I want to be found guilty of loving everyone I can, whenever I can. 4) God's seed is in me. I'm His temple. It's more natural for me NOT to sin today than it was in my B.C. days. To willfully, intenionally, and habitually sin today would result in serious consequences for my marriage, family, and ministry.
pj@nhic wrote, "I will not judge anyone for anything unless I'm willing to be judged equally."
ReplyDeleteLisa Bevere, in her book Be Angry, but Don't Blow It, recounts a story regarding a ministry couple she knew that went through divorce. Wanting to know how to classify the couple (what box to put them in), she described the situation to a wise and godly minister and braced herself for a long, in-depth biblical explanation. But instead, the minister just sighed and said, "That's a tough one. I'm glad I don't have to judge it."
I've spent far too much time forming opinions of others -- trying to "classify" them, setting myself up as a "fruit inspector". I find it liberating to be able to think, "I'm glad I don't have to judge them."
In the PCG, we have had plenty of opportunity to judge (or "inspect fruit"). The first two general conventions I attended were the one in Indiapolis and the one in Dallas -- both of which seemed shaded with dissension and division. Some attendees held strong feelings against the incumbent leaders, others were mad at those who cried out for change, and both sides would have been better off had they said, "That's a tough call. I'm glad I don't have to judge it."
I kinda like this approach better than one that says "I feel OK speaking my mind because I'm willing to be judged by the same standards." (I'm not saying pj@nhic said that, but I'm sure some of us have said it -- myself included).
From here on, I want to say, "I'm glad I don't have to judge it."
I appreciate the feedback but are we addressing the questions. I pray for Ted and can only imagine the hell he has gone through these last few years. However, do we have Ted's among us? Have we created a cutlure that makes it difficult for ministers to trust other ministers with secret battles? Does the way we do church and preach tell people that if their liufestyle is such they are not welcome here? What are we doing to prevent these things and not merely responding to them? What can we do as a fellowship, as ministers to help those Ted's among us that we don't know about?
ReplyDeleteTodd, here's an example that may help. About three years ago a woman started attending our church who was an admitted lesbian. She had bought into the cultural line that this was how God made her and she could still love Jesus and be a lesbian.
ReplyDeleteAs a staff we were faced with a dilemma. How do we love someone into the Kingdom without compromising the word of God? The decision was made to meet with her one on one and make it clear that while she may disagree with the church's stance on homosexuality, she could still attend the church and seek after God.
That single expression of love gave her the opportunity to see the love of God in action through people who knew of her lifestyle but didn't reject her. It took three years, but she has come to know the Christ of the Bible, renounced her old lifestyle and (no offense) become quite feminine in the process.
Obviously not everyone who struggles with sexual identity issues would take that same path, but when we chose to love her without hypocrisy, it opened the door for Holy Spirit to peel back the layers upon layers of rejection, guilt and shame she had lived with her entire life. So in short, I believe the only way we can have that environment in our churches is to love without hypocrisy - truly valuing the individula and continue to preach the truth that makes people free.
Jon, I appreciate your thoughts and my point in asking the questions that I did was to spark some conversation like this because far too many churches do not let people worship with them if they don't look, act and live like them. Certain lifestyles are treated differently thus people find it hard to discover God's love because it is conditional.
ReplyDeleteI think we have alot of people who struggle with things and do not feel they have someone they could go to and get help before it is exposed and their ministries and reputations are ruined. Our conventions and conferences ar full of insincere greetings and hollow words. Although there are some pure relationships between some, most are surface level at best. If you don't benefit me, I don't have time to care attitude.
Over the last few years I have seen numerous ministers, several of them friends have their marriages fall apart due to unfaithfulness. It begs the question, Are we doing all we can to assist in these areas? A leaders, have we created a culture of openess, honesty and true desire to see people healed, restored etc. I think there is much to this and we need to get this right because I believe ther are more people out there than we realize who are struggling and wonder if we are ready?
I know some of us are, but are we as a whole?
From http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/pornstats
ReplyDelete* Roger Charman of Focus on the Family's Pastoral Ministries reports that approximately 20 percent of the calls received on their Pastoral Care Line are for help with issues such as pornography and compulsive sexual behavior.
* In 2000 Christianity Today survey, 33% of clergy admitted to having visited a sexually explicit Web site. Of those who had visited a porn site, 53% had visited such sites “a few times” in the past year, and 18% visit sexually explicit sites between a couple of times a month and more than once a week.
* In March of 2002 Rick Warren’s Pastors.com website conducted a survey on porn use of 1351 pastors: 54% of the pastors had viewed Internet pornography within the last year, and 30% of these had visited within the last 30 days.
Unless PCG ministers are holier than those of other organizations, we have a huge number of ministers that struggle with porn.
I think it'd be safe to assume we also have a surprising number of ministers who struggle with alcohol, with drugs, with anger, or with misusing church funds.
What's a guy to do if he's struggling?
Someone says he needs an accountability relationship.
With whom?
How, exactly, does a minister who's struggling seek out an accountability partner?
He dare not tell any member of his congregation, lest the gossip start to spread even more than it already does.
He dare not tell his bishop, lest he find himself forced to resign the pastorate.
He dare not approach his peers, lest they tell the bishop.
He knows James says to "confess your faults one to another and pray one for another that you may be healed," but he doesn't trust or feel safe around anyone enough to do so.
Thus, the minister is stuck, needing somebody to help him, but knowing nobody that can help.
The Pastoral Care line at Focus on the Family may be a good resource, but what if they ask him to step down, or confess his struggles to his wife (who might leave him), or pay who-knows-how-much for counseling? (I speak as one totally unfamiliar with how FotF's care line works -- perhaps it's totally free).
One huge step forward... The story in Messenger last fall of the pastor's wife that struggled with a gambling addiction. That story surely helped others to see they're not alone; they're not the only ministers in the PCG who have struggled, but still received grace and still continue in ministry.
Maybe more transparency is needed from our leaders (both national and district), not to the point of sharing the dirty details of their sin, but at least enough to expose their own humanity, their need for grace, and the processes they worked through to find help and move on to victory.
Perhaps a future Messenger article could read: How to Find an Accountability Partner That Won't Kill You or Take Your Job
Ken,
ReplyDeleteVery good. I was one of those guys in my early years of youth pastoring in a church of about 900+ on Sunday morning, it was a non-denominational church. I had a pornography addiction. I carried that addiction into my early years of the PCG. I later found ut that my pastot and his son had sexual problems as well, one of them was having an affair 18 years with his sister-in-law. Back to the point. I told my pastor of my issues, he did not judge me (how could he right?) but later when the flames got hot for him he threw his knowledge of my problems back at me in a threatening matter.
I thank God for Pastor Naten. It was at his church in La HAbra that I found healing for many areas and eventulally deliverence from the addiction.
Newsweek did nan article years ago about adult film rentals in 3 star hotels. They found that adult film rentals went up over 50% during ministers conventions.
Ken, we don't have many places to turn and transparence would be great but too many feel like they would be lowering themselves to do so. I got rebuked one time for my transparency but over the years I have had too many people come to me after a service of preaching somewhere or now in my own church pull me aside and tell me "because you said what you di, I know you understand and can help".
We need to set the example, be the person someone can come to if they need to talk. If we aren't honest about our struggles we can't expect others to do so!
Thanks for the feedback. Great dialogue..
Ken,
ReplyDeleteVery good. I was one of those guys in my early years of youth pastoring in a church of about 900+ on Sunday morning, it was a non-denominational church. I had a pornography addiction. I carried that addiction into my early years of the PCG. I later found ut that my pastot and his son had sexual problems as well, one of them was having an affair 18 years with his sister-in-law. Back to the point. I told my pastor of my issues, he did not judge me (how could he right?) but later when the flames got hot for him he threw his knowledge of my problems back at me in a threatening matter.
I thank God for Pastor Naten. It was at his church in La HAbra that I found healing for many areas and eventulally deliverence from the addiction.
Newsweek did nan article years ago about adult film rentals in 3 star hotels. They found that adult film rentals went up over 50% during ministers conventions.
Ken, we don't have many places to turn and transparence would be great but too many feel like they would be lowering themselves to do so. I got rebuked one time for my transparency but over the years I have had too many people come to me after a service of preaching somewhere or now in my own church pull me aside and tell me "because you said what you di, I know you understand and can help".
We need to set the example, be the person someone can come to if they need to talk. If we aren't honest about our struggles we can't expect others to do so!
Thanks for the feedback. Great dialogue..
One of the most spell-binding sermons I've ever heard was delivered by an evangelist who told how he had been arrested for molesting a teen girl in a church he had pastored. He said, "I wish I could tell you that the charges were false, but I can't." I've never seen a congregation focus so intently on a preacher's message as I saw that evening, nor have I seen such a dramatic response to the alter call.
ReplyDeleteI sympathize with the desire to maintain the dignity of the pulpit, and I understand that being transparent sometimes gives ammo to congregants who might already dislike you. But, I also think it is deceitful to let the congregation suppose things about you that aren't true.
In any case, I don't think it wise to tell details of battles you're currently fighting.
I agree, but honesty about battles you've had and won give encouragement to those who are where you were.
ReplyDeleteI remember TD Jakes preaching one day talking about God hiding Moses. He said sometimes God hides us becasue we are fighting things and it is better to battle that enemy in private than on the public platform.
Appreciate the words Ken.